Rooster HVR problems?

45idaho
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Rooster HVR problems?

Postby 45idaho » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:59 am

I had 2 custom revolvers built and got custody of them in July after paying out the nose. Both are on Ruger Blackhawk frames with 4 5/8" barrels. One is in 454 Casull and the other is a 475 Linebaugh and I have been extremly satisfied with the performance of both of them. They both will shoot into 2" at 50 yards (+ or - 1/4") with no leading. These revolvers were in 44 mag and 45 colt and the accuracy and barrel leading sucked.

The only lube I have used in them is Rooster HVR because it seemed to help the leading issues in these revolvers before I had them rebuilt. I did a bunch of testing and worked up some pet hunting loads for both revolvers. I have close to 1000 round through each pistol. I thought life was grand and my problerms were over, then the weather cooled off. As it cooled down my velocities started climbing. One 45 degree morning the 1375 fps average of my 454 went to 1515 fps! I thought I had chronograph problems and pulled bullets to check powder charges, but my pet loads went wild!

After more testing I noticed that the 1st shot of each group was always the highest velocity. If I continued shooting and kept the barrel warm the velocities and group size would settle back down to where they were at 80+ degrees.

After cleaning the barrels the first 2 or 3 shots would not group and after that I could shoot over 100 rounds with no leading and great groups when the weather was warm. I can feel a coating of lube when running a dry brush through the bore. Solvent will easily take it out and the bores are mirror shiny with no signs of lead.

Now I will be back to testing lubes again. I am thinking about trying some heavy automotive grease to see if the wax in most lubes is really necessary.

My pet loads were:

27 gr. Lil Gun with a 375 gr. gas check bullet in the 475 for 1400 FPS
This went to 1450 with a cold barrel

28 gr. Lil Gun with a 335 gr gas check bullet in the 454 for 1350 FPS
This went to 1515 with a cold barrel

My thoughts are the Rooster lube in the barrel gets tough in cold temps which causes the pressure to climb. Hopefully a softer lube will work without leading and keep velocities consistant at different temperatures.

Any thoughts on things to try would be greatly appreciated!

User avatar
mtngun
Site Admin
Posts: 1632
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:45 pm
Location: Where the Salmon joins the Snake

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby mtngun » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:25 pm

Thank you for posting the data.

It's going to be challenging to do good side by side comparison tests of lubes in cold weather, because you won't have any control over the weather, and the temperature of the barrel will change during the tests. You could try freezing the ammo and carrying it in a cooler, but like you say, it's probably the temperature of the residual lube in the barrel that is more important.

I'm too wimpy to shoot handguns in extreme cold, but I've done a lot of rifle shooting in 30 - 40 degree F temps, and never noticed anything out of the ordinary with lubes.

Some random thoughts:

-- my first suspicion is the powder, not the lube. I tried Lil Gun in a 2 5/8" barrel and it sucked in every way. Try a side by side comparison test of Lil Gun vs. WW296/H110.

-- Rooster HVR is a "bandaid" for guns that have a gas sealing problem. The better the gun, the less it needs HVR to seal the barrel. Now that you have customized your wheelers, they may no longer needs HVR to prevent leading, even in warm weather.

-- this probably doesn't have anything to do with your cold weather problem, but as always with HVR, it needs to be applied in an oversize die. Otherwise, it forms a film on the surface of the die that effectively reduces the die diameter, and can result in bullets coming out several thou undersize.

Keep us posted.

45idaho
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby 45idaho » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:43 am

I think you may be right on the Lil Gun. It seems to group slightly better than H110 when temperatures are consistant, but the standard deviation always seems to be higher with the Lil Gun. Cold weather velocities with H110 are about 50 fps higher in cold temps with HVR.

Do you see any problems with trying a good stiff automotive grease? Is beeswax, paraffin, etc. necessary in lubes for any reason? Most lubes seem to contain some kind of wax. It seems the only benefits to wax are a stiffining agent and low melting point.

Thanks for your opinions, replys, and the great forum! This is a awesome place to go for some educated thoughts without dealing with a bunch of old farts BS and horn tooting like most forums!

User avatar
mtngun
Site Admin
Posts: 1632
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:45 pm
Location: Where the Salmon joins the Snake

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby mtngun » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:02 am

My reloading stuff is still packed away, otherwise I could do some quick cold weather tests with HVR. Someday ......

Now that I have thought about it some more, I have sometimes seen a trend for the first shot velocity to be highest, and subsequent shots losing velocity. That was usually a sign of fouling, and I have seen the trend with a variety of lubes. But, unlike your situation, what I was seeing was "normal" velocities in a clean barrel and "below normal" velocities as the barrel fouled and the gas seal went to crap. I don't recall seeing "above normal" velocities with cast bullets. To the contrary, it is usually a struggle to match loadbook velocities for a given powder charge.

Automotive lube ? It's been tried by many, no one has reported exceptional results with it. It is often used in homemade lubes for plinking-type loads, but you don't see these homemade lubes setting new world records in CBA matches.

If a bullet lube's job was merely to lubricate, we'd all be shooting Mobil 1.

A cast friendly-gun is not sensitive to lube. My Marlin 357 scarcely cares what lube is used. My Ruger Speed Six 357 shoots well with any lube, or even no lube, but gives higher velocity, lower standard deviation, and slightly better accuracy with hard lubes.

The most dramatic change due to lube that I have seen was in a M700 30-06 with a 165 gr. "LBT" style bullet. Switching to HVR could pick up 200 fps. A 180 gr. loverin was not nearly as lube sensitive, though it still favored HVR. I think the loverin's design creates an inherently better gas seal, so it is less dependent on a lube "bandaid."

Get a copy of The Fouling Shot published by the Cast Bullet Association. I'm not a huge fan of the CBA, but one useful thing they do is publish load data for their matches, including the lube used. HVR is popular, along with Blue Angel and Tom Grey's lube. The harder lubes seem to be gaining popularity amongst the target crowd, while the traditional soft lubes and homemade lubes seem to be losing ground.

As for HVR causing pressure to spike, I am very skeptical. Recall my test where I swabbed a barrel with valve grinding compound ???? The valve grinding compound didn't do squat to pressure or velocity. I think Rooster boosts velocity and pressure by reducing gas leakage, but I find it hard to believe that HVR would create more friction than valve grinding compound !!!!!

A technician at a powder company once told me that they had privately tested Lil Gun (interesting how they keep tabs on the competition) and gotten very erratic results. I no longer remember which company he was with, and anyway, he didn't want to start a pissing match with Hodgdon. I have found Lil Gun to be a great powder for small rifle cartridges -- though no better than H110/WW296 -- but inferior in short barreled revolvers.

45idaho
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby 45idaho » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:38 am

I did some shooting with Lyman Alox lube and H 110 in 40 degree weather to compair with Rooster velocities. The 1st shot in a cold barrel was always the highest velocity with both lubes.

475 Linebaugh and 31 grains H 110

375 grain gas check bullet

5 shots averaged 1406 FPS with Rooster in 80 degree temperature. 1st shot with cold barrel was 1432 FPS, 26 FPS over the 5 shot average.

15 shots averaged 1322 FPS with Lyman Alox in 40 degree temperature. 1st shots with cold barrel were 1362 and 1367 FPS for an average of 1365 FPS, 43 FPS over the 15 shot average.

454 Casull and 29 grains H 110

335 grain gas check bullet

25 shots averaged 1449 FPS with Rooster in 60 degree temperature. 1st shots with a cold barrel were 1463, 1458, 1462, 1468, and 1473 FPS for an average of 1465 FPS, 26 FPS over the 25 shot average average.

15 shots averaged 1401 FPS with Lyman Alox in 40 degree temperature. 1st shots with cold barrel were 1421, 1424, and 1419 for an average of 1431 FPS, 30 FPS over the 15 shot average average.

Both revolvers were shiny clean after 15 rounds with Lyman Alox (no leading just like Rooster)

From the few number of shots fired these results don't mean much. I am getting higher velocities with Rooster and the 1st cold barrel shots seem to be closer to the average velocity with Rooster which leads me to think that Rooster has less blow by than Lyman Alox. I am quick to blame the higher 1st shot velocities on a cold barrel when it could be more related to bullet pull from recoil, but the 2nd through 5th shots seem to be very close in velocity. If I threw out the 1st cold barrel shots my average velocity and standard deviation would be lower. I haven't checked for bullet pull from recoil with calipers, but visually they seem to stay the same length. I need to try warm barrel velocities with rounds that haven't been subjected to recoil in the cylinder. I also need to measure OAL of rounds that have been under recoil a few times. The 1st cold barrel shot is on the outer edge of the 5 shot group about 2/3ds of the time. A clean barrel does not change the 1st shot velocity, but when rapidy shooting a 2nd 5 shot group the 1st shot is very close to the average velocity. It looks like if I can get this 1st shot thing ironed out, I can take my average 5 shot group size from 3" to 2" at 50 yards.

I have given up on Lil Gun because it seems to be very sensitive to temperature, crimp, lubes, etc. More so with the 454 than the 475. 5 shot velocity averages vary over 100 FPS in different temperatures with Lil Gun and standard deviations are always over twice as high as H 110. I have shot a lot more rounds of Lil Gun than H110 because it seems to group a little better than H110, but the erratic velocities and pressures scare the hell out of me. I am sure you are right about Lil Gun being the problem more than lube. If it didn't group so good I would have given up on Lil Gun a long time ago.

Thanks for sharing your elk hunt! What a great way to get some good easy meat! I always enjoy when I get lucky enough to kill a bull where I can get my backhoe to it! The clean, quickly cooled meat is always way better than the dirty stuff that you worked your butt off trying to save out of some hell hole.

It is amazing the damage the 357 with cast did! It would be interesting to see what would have happened with a shot through the vitals and not hitting bone. I have shot several bulls with a 45 colt revolver through the ribs without hitting bone and it just punches a hole through them and they go about 100 to 200 yards before tipping over. There is way more damage in the vitals when the bullet hits a rib when entering. I havn't shot any big game with a smaller caliber cast bullet.

I took my 12 year old son out to kill his 1st deer this weekend with a 94 Winchester 30-30. I feel bad about not having him shoot it with a cast bullet. I was thinking an expanding jacketed bullet would tip a deer over quicker with a shot through the rib cage without hitting a rib than a cast bullet punching a small 30 caliber hole. Not a good way to get him interested in cast bullets. He hit a front leg bone before entering the brisket about like your bull was hit and I am sure a cast bullet would have done as good or better job. It would be interesting to see what a 30 caliber hole without hitting bone would do!

45idaho
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby 45idaho » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:47 am

Sorry about the bad math/ typo on the 454 with Lyman Alox load! The 1st shot average should have been 1421 FPS and a 20 FPS higher than average velocity.

User avatar
mtngun
Site Admin
Posts: 1632
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:45 pm
Location: Where the Salmon joins the Snake

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby mtngun » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:21 pm

Great data !!! Thanks for taking the time to share.

Your data agrees with my experience that HVR almost always boosts velocity. I can't help but think that is a good thing.

Dunno what to tell you about the accuracy difference between H110 and Lil Gun, except, as you know, H110/WW296 seem to like max loads.

45idaho wrote: A clean barrel does not change the 1st shot velocity.
Interesting -- so the 1st shot difference can't be attributed to stiff residual lube in the barrel ????

I have shot several bulls with a 45 colt revolver through the ribs without hitting bone and it just punches a hole through them and they go about 100 to 200 yards before tipping over.
Pretty much my experience with low velocity cast unless the bullet nails the heart. Note this is not what Elmer Keith led us to believe.

45idaho
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby 45idaho » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:23 pm

I have read about H110 shooting best at or near max loads also. The problem I have is what do they mean by max? Max pressure, Max powder compressed in availiable space or what?????? I don't have any way of measuring CUP or PSI and can only guess from looking at primers, case extraction, looking at published load data, etc. I can keep a bullet crimped on 31 grains of H110 in the 454 under my 335 grain bullet but 32 grains of H110 will push the bullet out before I can get it crimped in place unless I crimp and seat in the same step with the seating die. I would like to think that 31 grains of H110 is max for that bullet even though it shows no pressure signs, or is that bullet too light for H110 to work correctly? I get 1525 FPS with 31 grains of H110 with the 325 gr bullet and Rooster and 1560 FPS with 32 grains of H110 from the 4 5/8" barrel. Standard Deviation and group size stay about the same with loads between 27 and 32 grains of H110. All I get with the loads above 30 grains of H110 are a little more velocity and a hell of a lot more and sharper recoil!

Sorry about going off on their vague "at or near max load" thing and please don't think I even want you to try to explain it! I was just trying to explain my thoughts on their "max load" thing.

From what little testing I have done so far a clean barrel hasn't had any effect on the 1st shot velocity being high. My clean barrel condition was scrubbed out with a brush and solvent then scrubbed with a brush with soap and as hot of water as I can stand and rinsed with hot water then dried. The barrel was absolutely dry with no oil or solvent. I don't know if the lead bullet sticks in the clean dry barrel about the same as the barrel with cold lube or what is happening. I guess I should try a clean barrel with a light coat of oil. I will let you know if I come up with anything.

You mentioned hitting them in the heart, which is very interesting. I remember shooting a deer with the 45 colt and blowing the heart to mush and both front shoulders were bloodshot so bad the meat was not salvagable. He went down like he was struck by lightning. Even though it did not hit any shoulder there was so much meat ruined you would have thought it was shot by a 7 Ultra Mag. I wonder if hitting the heart with a slow moving bullet causes hydraulic shock like high velocity rifles do. I don't recall this ever happening in any of the elk I have shot with slow moving cast, but it might be that I have never hit the heart.

User avatar
mtngun
Site Admin
Posts: 1632
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:45 pm
Location: Where the Salmon joins the Snake

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby mtngun » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:16 pm

I hear you on the pressure question. All I can say is that I don't compress H110/WW296.

I've had good luck with heart shots, only problem is, lately I haven't had good luck HITTING the heart. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Even low velocity bullets that just pencil through the heart will drop the critter within 50 yards.

45idaho
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Postby 45idaho » Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:00 am

Just a couple more things I noticed about Rooster Lube.

My 454 has very tight chambers.

.480" at the base and .479" at the case mouth. The chambers are .03" longer than my 454 cases then a 30 degree taper to the .4515" throats. A normal chamber has a 5 degree taper from the chamber to throat which allows for a longer full diameter front band. I have to size my bullets to .452 so the cases will chamber and 1/2 of the front band to .451 so they will enter the throat.

To experiment, I cut down some 460 S&W cases .03" longer than my 454 cases and sized the whole front band to .451 to see if accuracy/velocity changes. They are a very tight fit, but I can push the cases in by hand. What I noticed when trying to chamber the new longer cases in the uncleaned cylinder was that the Rooster lube from previous shots had filled the .03 area in front of the case mouth and part of the throat taper. The longer cases acutally pushed a ring of lube ahead of them. This may be part of the reason that Rooster gets higher velocities than thinner lubes. It creates a better fit/seal in front of the case. I can remember sometimes pulling fired cases out of the chamber with some lube stuck to the case mouth. I will let you know if I get any different results with the longer cases.

Another thing I have noticed with Rooster is pieces of lube stuck on my chronograph and sometimes there are lube pieces stuck to the target 50 yards down range. I have also seen lube in part of the bullet lube grooves on recovered bullets. How much of an effect do you think lube flying off one side of the bullet has on accuracy from an off balance bullet? It seems to me the ideal thing would be for the lube to all fly out right after leaving the barrel.

I have loaded some rounds with the same load, 1/2 of them with Rooster and the rest with Lyman Alox for my 454 and 475 and hope to be able to test them tomorrow. I will let you know what happens.


Return to “lubes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron