Lubes & Crimps

45idaho
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Lubes & Crimps

Postby 45idaho » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:40 am

I don't know if the longer cases helped accuracy. I can't shoot good enough with these wheelers to notice a difference. Years ago I tried using a scope to test accuracy, but under the heavy recoil it was always hard to keep the scope / mounts in place and after a hundred rounds or so the scope would go to hell. I wasted too much time waiting for warranty replacements from Leupold and Burris and they got tired of me tearing up their scopes so I just gave up on them. I have been thinking about building a heavy duty mount that would clamp on the entire barrel with a picatinny rail that I could put 3 or 4 rings on and add a bunch of weight to the pistol for accuracy tests, but the time, money............

I have also thought of making a clamp on weighted device with fine sights for testing. The 1/8" front sight at full arms reach is about 2' from my eye which equates to about a 10" wide front sight picture at 50 yards.

What I did notice about the long cases that took up all of the chambers was I no longer had Rooster lube buildup in the chamber in front of the case mouths. This could also have an effect on the consistant velocities I got with the different lubes.

A friend sent me some 425 grain .475 LBT bullets to try out that were lubed with LBT lube. Some of the lube came out of the grooves during shipping so I ran them through my lube die and the voids were replaced with Rooster lube. After firing some of the cases had lube stuck to the mouth in one small area. I don't know if this was only a spot that Rooster left a deposit, or if it was Lbt Lube. Just black lube.

The load I tried with the 425 grain bullets was too hot and the cases were sticking bad, so I left the rest of the ones I had loaded in chambers I was not using while trying other loads to get them loosened up for easier bullet pulling later. They had also backed out of the case about .020. With an inertia puller it took about 25 to 40 hard wacks to get the bullet to move past the crimp then they came out easily.

When I first started shooting the 475 the front band of the bullets was too long to chamber so I drove the cases in to try them out. I got a couple of 5 shot groups with H110 that had a SD of 1. I have since sized the front portion of the front band down so they would chamber and the SD went up quite a bit. I'm sure from crimps loosening.

What kind of crimp have you had the best luck with in your testing? Do you have any suggestions on things or different crimps to try?

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mtngun
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Re: Lubes & Crimps

Postby mtngun » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:09 pm

25 - 40 whacks to loosen a 425 grain bullet ? That may be as good as it is going to get.

You probably already know this, but here is my list of things that help keep bullets from walking out (but then I don't shoot cannons :lol: ):

-- turn down case mouth belling stem diameter so the stem barely touches the case. All it should do is knock dents out of the case and bell the mouth.

-- use a deep seated design (short nose, long body) if you have a choice in the matter.

-- ordinary roll crimp, and don't overdo it. An excessively "hard" crimp may actually reduce bullet pull because it bulges the case a little.

-- new cases grip better than cases that have been reloaded many times. Old cases can be freshened by annealing the necks (and only the necks) but it's a lot of work.

Can't think of anything else.

With some guns, you just have to reduce the load. My S&W 44 from hell was that way. A full house 280 LFN would unlock the cylinder and walk bullets out of the case. At the time, I wasn't able to solve those problems, so I downloaded it to 1100 fps. The 1100 fps load put a lot of meat in the freezer.

Can't say that I've ever had a problem with a 357 walking bullets out of the case. :P As I get older, I appreciate the humble 357 more and more. It's easy to load, easy to shoot, and easy on the wallet,

But if everyone shot 357's, I wouldn't sell many molds, would I ? :mrgreen:

45idaho
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:03 pm

Re: Lubes & Crimps

Postby 45idaho » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:27 am

The 25 to 40 whacks were after the 425 gr bullets were subjected to 4 recoil hits in the 475 cylinder which already slightly backed the bullets out. It took that many to move the case mouth past the bottom of the crimp groove. I think bullets backing out slightly might just be a fact of life with these heavy recoilers :| ???

I remember reading something that Verl wrote about expanding cases to a few thousanths below bullet size (I don't remember the number) for the best grip. He said cases expanding too much during bullet seating was as bad for bullet grip as expanding too little. Because of that writing I have been using a Lyman M die for case flairing, but as I remember Verl said they are also the wrong size. Of course only his expanders work right.

I think the memory in new or annealed cases does give a better grip on the bullet. You can actually see the brass relaxing in the lube grooves and behind the bullet. Work hardened cases visually don't seem to relax as much. I remember annealing rifle cases and the necks got so soft they wouldn't hold jacketed bullets with no crimp. I had to run them through the sizer and expander a few times to get them to work. I probably got them too hot before quenching. What is your annealing method?

I also think hard lubes may help with this. I am going to try baking them around 250 degrees to see if this helps glue the bullets in place. I think this may have been part of my cold weather high velocity problem.

I wish I could quickly get this problem ironed out damn it! These wheelers are made for packin and huntin, not testing on a bench! Guess I should use your whacking dummies method for testing crimps. God that sounds boring, but this attempt in making the perfect load is not all fun and games!

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mtngun
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Re: Lubes & Crimps

Postby mtngun » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:30 am

45idaho wrote:Verl wrote about expanding cases to a few thousanths below bullet size (I don't remember the number) for the best grip. He said cases expanding too much during bullet seating was as bad for bullet grip as expanding too little. Because of that writing I have been using a Lyman M die for case flairing, but as I remember Verl said they are also the wrong size. Of course only his expanders work right.


Don't get me started on Veral. :D But he may have been trying to say that insufficient case expansion can result in damage to soft bullets, which is true.

I want to say that the expanding stem should be 0.010" smaller than the bullet, but my reloading dies are packed away so I can't measure them now.

The stems on M-dies are usually too big. Since you are having problems with bullets walking out, the M-die stem seems like a logical thing to experiment with.

This has to be tested by trial and error. Use an inertia puller to pull a bullet and mic it to see if there is significant damage. I have yet to see a serious problem in revolver cases with heat treated wheelweight, but cases prepped with my undersize stems have damaged air-cooled wheelweight. 30-06 cases, on the other, will damage even HTWW, so I had to make several different M-die stems for the 30-06.

I annealed case mouths by standing the cases in a pan of shallow water, heating with a propane torch, and then tipping them over into the water. It was a pain, and I only did it one time. It did "fix" those 44 cases for a few more reloads.


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