HVR vs. Lyman Super Moly

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mtngun
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HVR vs. Lyman Super Moly

Postby mtngun » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:20 pm

from the old forum:

Sized and lubed up 60 with the Red Rooster.

I loaded them with the same load I had been using - 16gr 2400 for slightly over 1000 FPS.

First 2 cylinders went fine. The group started opening up and I thought it was me as the wind was blowing and I may have been hurrying the shots. Didn't really care, I just wanted to see if they leaded.

Well - They sure did lead, I got leading on top of leading for about half the lenght of the barrel. I don't think the group opening up was me after all.

Failure.

While the Lyman Super Moly does lead the last 1 - 1.5 in of barrel, the accuracy stays, at least through 40 rounds. Leading is not real hard to clean out, a few minutes with a 50 cal bore brush and it is gone and the barrel is just shiny.

I tried a Home Brew that leaded only slightly worse then the Lyman and the accuracy stayed there with it too, at least through 40 rounds.

Good points with the Red Rooster - a LOT cleaner then with the Lyman, it just wiped off, what little bit was there. Will I buy some more - Not really, So far, other then being dirty, the Lyman Super Moly works the best, and I don't need to use the heater with it.

I am working with the BRFP which is a gas check, I will try that with the Red Rooster, one to use it up and I also think that sized and lub bullets will store better with it.

I will let you know if it appears to work with the BRFP. I want to shoot that out of my Marlin 1894 'Specal' 44 mag with a 16 in barrel that is MG.

Drew

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Re: HVR vs. Lyman Super Moly

Postby mtngun » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:22 pm

Thank you for sharing your results. It would be more meaningful if you were to load some of your Super Moly bullets and HVR bullets at the same session, and shoot them at the same time, and record the velocities and the groups, for at least 15 shots each.

I have yet to try Super Moly (though I did try adding moly to several homemade lubes and the effect was usually negative). I rarely shoot reduced loads, so I don't claim to know a lot about them and it may be that reduced loads may play by different rules than full throttle loads.

Anyway, getting back to the subject of your misbehaving Ruger.... doesn't it make you wonder why some wheelguns will shoot decently with unlubed bullets while other guns will foul no matter which lube you use? :?:

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Re: HVR vs. Lyman Super Moly

Postby mtngun » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:26 pm

posted by Drew:

Test Date 1/16/06, Cloudy 45-55 degrees
Ruger SBH 4 5/8" 44 Mag, Bowen Custom Classic rear sight.
All loads dumped with a Lyman 55 powder measure.
Starline Brass
16 gr 2400
CCI LP primer
285 grain plain base SWC Brass made by Mountain Molds
AC WW

Rooter Red (RR) versus Lyman Super Moly (LSM)

30 rounds each were loaded, same dies, same lot of primers, same lot of 2400, same brass, same alloy, and same loading session. The powder measure was refilled to the same level for each set of 30 rounds. 5 charges were thrown before starting to charge the cases for each lot of ammo.

The barrel and cylinder were cleaned when changing from RR to LSM.

Groups were 5 rounds each shot over an Oehler 35P with 3 sky screens.

Same bench rest set up for both Lots of ammo. Once the sand bags were placed on the bench they were not moved until all shooting was completed.

The chronograph was set up at the beginning and not moved until all shooting was completed.

All 30 rounds (6 groups of 5 rounds each) for both lots of ammo were shot on the same target. New target put up in as close to the same exact place as possible for the 2nd 30 rounds. RR was shot first.

All shooting was completed within 2 hours (couldn't shoot any faster).
Each shot's velocity was recorded and the Shot String's Standard Deviation (SD), Extreme Spread (ES), High and Low velocity along with the Average velocity were recorded.

After the 2nd group of LSM I had problems seeing 6 o'clock and the groups starting rising in the target.

LSM had an overall higher velocity but RR had a lower ES and SD.

Both lubes leaded the last 1.5+ inches of the barrel. Upon cleaning the barrel it was noted RR had about twice the leading then LSM did. That was apparent by the amount of lead dust/specs on the cloth that was under the Ruger while cleaning it. I took pictures of both, but they are hard to see when I dropped the resolution so they are not posted below.

All Leading was removed before LSM was shot.

Rooster Red (RR)
Group 1 2 3 4 5 6 Avg
Shot 1, 1040, 1057, 1088, 1052, 1030, 1057, 1054
Shot 2, 1061, 1056, 1057, 1030, 1070, 1042, 1053
Shot 3, 1033, 1029, 1054, 1052, 1053, 1050, 1045
Shot 4, 1056, 1043, 1062, 1056, 1096, 1050, 1061
Shot 5, 1070, 1059, 1067, 1072, 1052, 1061, 1064
ES 37 30 34 42 66 19 38
SD 15 12 13 15 24 7 14
High, 1070, 1059, 1088, 1072, 1096, 1061, 1074
Low, 1033, 1029, 1054, 1030, 1030, 1042, 1036
Avg, 1052, 1048, 1065, 1052, 1060, 1052, 1055

Lyman Super Moly (LSM)
Group , 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Avg
Shot 1, 1085, 1072, 1053, 1062, 1064, 1077, 1069
Shot 2, 1063, 1058, 1058, 1042, 1050, 1047, 1053
Shot 3, 1045, 1079, 1081, 1048, 1048, 1065, 1061
Shot 4, 1078, 1085, 1053, 1101, 1072, 1090, 1080
Shot 5, 1081, 1043, 1044, 1080, 1040, 1059, 1058
ES, 40, 42, 37, 59, 32, 43, 42
SD, 16, 16, 13, 24, 12, 16, 16
High, 1085, 1085, 1081, 1101, 1072, 1090, 1086
Low, 1045, 1043, 1044, 1042, 1040, 1047, 1044
Avg, 1070, 1067, 1057, 1066, 1054, 1067, 1064


RR, LSM
Shot 1, 1054, 1069
Shot 2, 1053, 1053
Shot 3, 1045, 1061
Shot 4, 1061, 1080
Shot 5, 1064, 1058
ES 38, 42
SD 14, 16
High, 1074, 1086
Low, 1036, 1044
Avg, 1055, 1064

Things I didn't include but should have:

Groups shot at 30 yards.

Throats - .4315

Groove - .430

Gun has been fire lapped with the LBT kit. Bore is like a mirror.

All numbered shots where from the same chamber - i.e. all shots marked 1 were shot from the same chamber, all shots marked number 2 the same chamber, etc.

When I got this Ruger back from Bowen they had a piece in there about not allowing a empty chamber under the loading gate with heavy loads. The loading gate could be damaged. Ruger has a mark on the face of the Cylinder, I keep an empty case in the chamber just before that mark, hence - All shots chambers are always in the same sequence when shooting.

The last part is the averages by chamber for each lube

Yes - my Chronograpgh (Oehler 35P) will run 30 shot strings, as all shots are listed, it wouldn't be hard to compute the SD, ES, High, low and average for the 30 rounds.

Yes the HVR did print higher, I also used a different target then I normally use (Shoot and See - verus NRA 25 yard slow fire). I thought that I would be abvle to see the black better, but that lime green caused me to loose 6 o'clock with the Super Moly. I did not have that problem with the HVR.

Yes the fliers were different velocities, High of 1088 and low of 1030.

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Re: HVR vs. Lyman Super Moly

Postby mtngun » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:29 pm

Well, done, Drew. Hard to argue with that data.

I wish more people would post quality data like yours. People still will pick nits with how you conducted the test, but it's hard to dispute the data itself when there is so much of it.

I know that gunwriters routinely report standard deviations for 5 shot or even 3 shot strings, but it really takes at least 10 shots to calculate standard deviation accurately. If I were you, I would take the average and the standard deviation for all 30 shots combined, if your chronograph lets you (otherwise I am totally impressed by your work).

I plugged your 30 shot strings into a spreadsheet and came up with:

HVR: 1055.2 fps average, 1.35% standard deviation

Super Moly: 1064.1 fps average, 1.47% standard deviation

No one really cares about a mere 9 fps, but I am inclined to view a velocity increase as a sign that something good is happening, or conversely, a velocity decrease as a sign that something bad is happening. Your groups and your observation on barrel fouling tend to agree with what the chronograph is saying.

It appears that HVR printed a little higher than Super Moly, and the fliers in particular were higher. It has been my experience that fliers caused by fouling usually land high regardless of whether the velocity is higher, lower, or the same.

I am puzzled about why your experience with HVR is so different than mine, but I'll just have to try Super Moly and see what happens.

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Re: HVR vs. Lyman Super Moly

Postby mtngun » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:33 pm

note: Drew posted group pictures but they seem to have been lost when Mountain Molds changed servers.


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