Rooster HVR problems?

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Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Post by mtngun » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:06 am

45idaho wrote: Another thing I have noticed with Rooster is pieces of lube stuck on my chronograph and sometimes there are lube pieces stuck to the target 50 yards down range. I have also seen lube in part of the bullet lube grooves on recovered bullets. How much of an effect do you think lube flying off one side of the bullet has on accuracy from an off balance bullet? It seems to me the ideal thing would be for the lube to all fly out right after leaving the barrel.
That is a classic cast bullet campfire debate.

I have yet to observe lube on my chronograph or on my target, unless you count the smear around the bullet hole. I have indeed found lube on recovered bullets -- even soft lubes, like the NRA formula. Not all the time, but once in a while. Most of the time the lube is abraded off when the bullet hits the dirt. I've had best luck recovering undamaged bullets by shooting into a large drift of snow, and then recovering the bullets after the snow melts....... another one of those experiments that is on my list of things to do ........ someday.

That gunwriter from SW Idaho -- Brian Somebody ???? -- once published an article showing a cast wheelgun bullet recovered from an elk, or from the dirt after passing through an elk, I can't remember which. Anyway, his recovered bullet was chock full of what appeared to be NRA lube.

Guns and Ammo magazine used to do a a lot of high speed photography showing the bullet leaving the muzzle. One time they showed a cast LBT bullet leaving the barrel of a 4" 44 mag. It appeared to show the lube being slung off the bullet as it exited the muzzle.

So there seems to be conflicting data on what happens to the lube after the bullet leaves the barrel.

It makes you wonder. If the grooves are still full of lube when the bullet exits the barrel, then why does it matter how much lube the bullet holds, since most of the lube is never "utilized" ???? Yet you often hear people complain that they need deeper grooves because their bullet is "running out of lube."

I guess the bottom line is that we don't know for sure how lube works or what happens to it, but we try different things and go with whatever works best. Where people go wrong is instead of doing scientific tests, they jump to conclusions based on one group or maybe three groups. It takes a lot of groups to prove statistical significance.

I don't like the throat design on revolvers, with the big funnel in front of the chamber. Whether it is a big 5 degree funnel or a big 30 degree funnel, it's still a big funnel (0.479" in your case) when it should start out just a few thou over bullet diameter. I suspect that revolver chambers would be better served by rifle-type throats. If I ever win the lottery, maybe I'll have a custom revolver made to test that theory.

Been there, done that, on sizing front bands to snugly fit in the chamber. Even for target shooting, it is a nuisance to have to push the cartridges in, with some of them not wanting to chamber easily because of fouling or residual lube or normal tolerances. And never mind reloading while pursuing a wounded animal. The tight fit may actually hurt accuracy if some cartridges don't chamber easily --- imagine a situation where some cartridges seat all the way, while some cartridges still have a few thou sticking out, and some of those cartridges that stick out are going to move when the hammer hits them, which isn't going to help consistent ignition.

I like my wheelgun cartridges to drop right in. That's why I use a TC nose with the front band length chosen so that it stops just short of the narrow part of the funnel. Since the bullet has to "jump" only a few thou until it is supported in the throat, accuracy is still good, yet no fancy sizing or tolerances are required. For longer noses, you can accomplish the same thing by putting a step on the nose.

But thanks for sharing. I am enjoying hearing about what you are learning.

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Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Post by 45idaho » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:48 am

10/25/08 Range Report 4 5/8" 454 Casull 5 shot Blackhawk Hornady 460 S&W Cases cut to 1.415" Fed Large Mag Rifle Primers 30 grains H110

Mountain Mold 335 GR, Tan Ogive, .4" nose, 80% Meplat, .090" crimp, gas check, .452" with front band sized to .450" Temperature 55

All groups were 5 shots at 50 yards chambered 1 at a time in the next chamber. Unused chambers had empty brass for gate support.

Lube Crimp Velocity ES SD Group

Rooster Exagerated 1396 15 5.8 4" Started with clean barrel

Rooster Exagerated 1416 34 12.6 3.25

Rooster Heavy 1427 36 13.4 3"

Rooster Heavy 1373 47 18.7 3.75"

Lyman Alox Exagerated 1392 39 18 4.5" Started with clean barrel

Lyman Alox Exagerated 1416 26 9.5 2.75

Lyman Alox Heavy 1410 23 8.2 1.75" Lucky Group

Lyman Alox Heavy 1402 26 12 3"

Bullets were seated and crimped with Lyman roll crimp seater in 2 steps. Exagerated crimps were badly marking case mouths and distorting the bullet.

The 2 Lubes and crimps tested made no significant difference in velocities, SD, or group size. I don't think I can shoot any better than this after getting battered around by this heavy recoiling 3 pound revolver. Group size differences are most probably the nut behind the gun. The 1st couple of shots after cleaning the barrel were usually out of the regular group. It takes a couple of shots to season the barrel. There was no noticable leading with either lube. The Highest velocity was the 1st shot in 1 group and the 5th shot in 4 groups.

These results were completly different than previous results! Previously 90% of the time the 1st shot was the highest velocity. The only changes were case length and firing cartridges that hadn't been subjected to recoil. I tried a group with a cylinder full of the same load.

Rooster Heavy 1365 57 23.4 4.5"

The 1st shot was the highest velocity and the next shot was a lower velocity with no exceptions. After 3 shots I measured the OAL of the remaning 2. One was .010 over length and the other was .020 over length. I fired the longest one and measured the other round. It had grown from .010 to .023 over length. My bullets were pulling crimp!!!!!!!

Why was Rooster giving me Higher velocities in cold weather (40 degrees) than Lyman Alox???????????? These are only wild assed uneducated guesses. The High velocity Rooster rounds were loaded for almost a month and I don't remember if they were ever subjected to high temperatures in my pickup or not. I think the Rooster could have softened in the case from high temperatures and after cooling actually acted as a glue between the bullet and case in the cold temps which helped hold the crimp. The Lyman Alox rounds previously tested were fired the day after they were loaded. All loads fired yesterday were freshly assembled, except for the 5 I shot that were subjected to recoil. Another possibility is there was no longer a bunch of chamber space ahead of the case mouth that Rooster was able to fill because of the .03" longer cases. Or a combination of both of the above plus a bunch of other variables??????????????????

The High velocity Rooster loads previously fired with H 110 were

Rooster Heavy 1493 32 12.6 3"

Rooster Heavy 1463 39 18 4.5"

The reason these velocities were higher than yesterday's results I am sure is because of the shorter Casull cases.

I am sure Lil Gun was getting 100+ FPS velocity swings on different days is because it more dependent on crimp tension and case volume than H110.

Yesterdays results with my 475 Linebaugh: 32 H110 375 grain Mountain Mold GC Similar to 335 gr 454 bullet.

Rooster Heavy 1366 65 24.2 2.75" Last shot was highest velocity

Lyman Alox Heavy 1371 39 15.3 3.25" 2nd shot was highest velocity

I gave up shooting after shooting the 2 groups through the 475 as I felt beat up enough for one day. The 475 didn't show any changes because of lubes.

Now I need to work on crimps, baking some loaded Rooster rounds (hope I don't blow the oven up!), shorter Casull brass, and ..................

These light 3 pound revolvers have a bunch of recoil, so this crimp thing may be tough to get under control.

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Re: Rooster HVR problems?

Post by mtngun » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:42 pm

Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your test results !!!!! Data is a wonderful thing.

Do you think the longer cases helped accuracy ?

That was a good idea to single load the cartridges, to rule out the possibility that recoil was walking the other bullets out of the case. EXCELLENT test.

I don't have any experience using RIFLE primers with H110. As you know, with pistol primers, H110/WW296 usually prefer magnum pistol primers over standard pistol primers. I dunno if the magnums are still needed with rifle primers. A 10 shot standard deviation will tell you -- once you get past the "walking out of the crimp" problem.

I agree that cartridges that have sat on the shelf for a while will grip the bullet tighter than cartridges that were loaded a few minutes or hours ago. I ran into that when I was using an inertia puller to compare bullet pull on dummy cartridges. I think I was using unlubed bullets for those tests. At the time, I guessed that the brass was creeping -- it has residual stress and will tend to "move" toward a less stressed state over a long period of time. There could be some corrosion or oxidation involved, too. But I never followed up on the aging issue.

If you haven't already tried it, an inertia puller can be a simple way to test bullet pull. Use dummy cartridges and count the number of "whacks" required to pull the bullet. It's a lot cheaper and faster than trips to the range. The dummy cartridges have to be loaded all at the same session in order to eliminate the age variable. A good grip will hold on to the bullet for 100 or more whacks. A bad grip will let go after one or two whacks. It depends on the bullet weight, too -- heavier pullets are easier to knock out because they have more inertia.
I am sure Lil Gun was getting 100+ FPS velocity swings on different days is because it more dependent on crimp tension and case volume than H110.
Dunno, Lil Gun has not been fussy in my 357 rifle loads, which are only very lightly crimped (but the bullet kisses the rifling, which aids ignition in the same way that a strong crimp does). I seem to remember that Lil Gun didn't like to be compressed though.

Good shooting, with a real packing pistol, too. 8-)

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